The announcement of Groovy being submitted as a JSR has caused a maelstrom of
reactions from people asking all kinds of questions:
- Who will lead the JSR?
- Who will be part of the Experts Group?
- Who will write the TCK?
- Where will the source be kept?
- etc…
Those are all good questions which will need to be answered in time, but
until then, I notice that everybody is making a very important assumption:
that JSR 241 will be accepted by Sun.
This outcome is far from being guaranteed.
Actually, I am pretty sure that Sun will refuse this JSR, for a number of
reasons. Maybe the justification will be technical (the language is too
young, community is too small, it looks like Java but it’s not quite Java,
etc…) but I believe the real reason is strategic.
Simply put: Groovy is a very real threat to Java.
Do you remember how five years ago, C++ users used to laugh at the simple
idea that Java might one day displace C++ in enterprise applications?
Well, for all I know, maybe in five years from now, Groovy (or another
"scripting" language) will have become mainstream and we will be wondering how
can Java programmers not be disgusted by the complexity of their language of
choice.
Don’t get me wrong: I am a Groovy fan. Ruby used to be my
scripting language of choice and over these past years, I have accumulated a
certain number of Ruby scripts that are working really well, but right now, I
can’t think of any reason to use Ruby when I have Groovy.
Groovy does everything Ruby does, with three additional points:
- Its syntax is Java-like.
- It has access to the entire Java objectscape.
- It can compile to .class files.
For all you know, the next ejbgen.jar that I ship could be written half in
Java and half in Groovy. You won’t notice. My regression tests won’t
notice. And the version after that might be 100% Groovy.
And this is precisely what should worry Sun. And why I think Groovy
will not be accepted as a JSR.
But I wish good luck to James and I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
#1 by Sam Newman on March 18, 2004 - 10:25 am
How can you consider groovy a competitor to Java? It needs the Java platform to run! Its like saying WordPerfect is a competitor to the windows operating system. It might be a competitor to Word, but not the OS. The only thing groovy competes with is other languages, as such it competes with the Java language but not the platform. Without the java platform groovy is nothing. Think .net – VB, C#, J# all different languages using the same common runtime. Groovy is just another language using the same platform as the Java language.
#2 by Carlos Villela on March 18, 2004 - 10:40 am
So, Groovy is a competitor to the Java language, not the platform. Thus, standardization through the *Java* Community Process makes sense, no? 🙂
#3 by Anonymous on March 18, 2004 - 11:56 am
Groovy JSR: I don’t doubt it
And we hold the world ransom for… One Millllyyon Dollars. Simply put: Groovy is a very real threat to Java. – Otaku, Cedric Beust Groovy is not a threat to Java. It and its ilk are a threat to how…
#4 by Joe Duffy on March 18, 2004 - 1:17 pm
Oh God, please no.
Accepting Groovy into the JCP would be akin to forcing an extraordinarily productive and effective XP development organization into a waterfall-style methodology.
#5 by Stefan Tilkov's Random Stuff on March 18, 2004 - 1:31 pm
Groovy: A Threat to Java?
Bill de hÓra, Cedric Beust, and various more or less clueless folks on TSS add their comments to the Groovy JSR debate. I hope that the JCP executive committee will accept it — in my opinion, Groovy would be simply a great addition to the JV…
#6 by lurker on March 18, 2004 - 3:29 pm
groovy will be accepted but with a name change. sun care about the vm more than the language. grooovy will supplant java the language not the platform.
#7 by Anonymous on March 18, 2004 - 7:50 pm
> And this is precisely what should
> worry Sun. And why I think Groovy
> will not be accepted as a JSR.
Cute theory. Too bad it is totally unrooted in reality.
Sun does not have any veto power on JSRs like this; it’s a majority vote of the SE/EE Executive Committee that decides whether or not to accept this JSR for development.
#8 by Read The Fine Print on March 18, 2004 - 8:01 pm
> Actually, I am pretty sure that
> Sun will refuse this JSR
You do realize, don’t you, that Sun *cannot* “refuse this JSR” — it’s up to a majority vote of the Executive Committee? Nah, you wouldn’t have said this if you’d actually read the JCP process documents.
#9 by James Strachan's Radio Weblog on March 19, 2004 - 1:26 am
Sun, the Groovy JSR and concerns over implementations
Multiple Implementations of Groovy There’s been another concern expressed recently over how many implementations of Groovy will there be – what if there’s only one? Just to be clear, its the EG’s responsibility to make a great spec and a reference impleme
#10 by Fine Print Does You No Good on March 19, 2004 - 5:32 am
Reality Check: whether Sun has or does not have a veto power on a specific JSR is hardly the sticking point. Rules are rules and rules can be bent. Sun certainly has ways to influence the vote. When money comes to play then the idealistic “community” (including Apache) will have to step aside. Community is good for the PR image, but money rules the world (which the OSS community has about $0 worth). Follow the money.
Cedric is right. Just go watch how businesses work. The executive committee has little power over whoever McNealy decides to play a round of golf with.
#11 by adam connor on March 20, 2004 - 7:58 am
>Ruby used to be my scripting language of choice and
>over these past years, I have accumulated a certain
>number of Ruby scripts that are working really
>well, but right now, I can’t think of any reason to
>use Ruby when I have Groovy.
Ruby supports continuations; Groovy does not.
#12 by Groovy News on March 22, 2004 - 4:08 am
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR by admin
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR in his [http://beust.com/weblog/weblog/archives/000100.html|weblog].
Interesting to see the view that Groovy is really a contender to the Java crown
#13 by Groovy News on March 22, 2004 - 4:14 am
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR by admin
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR in his [http://beust.com/weblog/weblog/archives/000100.html|weblog].
Interesting to see the view that Groovy is really a contender to the Java crown
#14 by Groovy News on March 22, 2004 - 3:51 pm
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR by admin
Cedric’s not so sure Sun will go for the new Groovy JSR in his [http://beust.com/weblog/weblog/archives/000100.html|weblog].
Interesting to see the view that Groovy is really a contender to the Java crown
#15 by gerryg on March 30, 2004 - 5:51 pm
Um, you were wrong Cedric. Unanimous decision in favor of Groovy: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=24798
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